The Craft of Flying – Jason Miller on Teaching, Communication and The Finer Points

00:00:00:

00:00:27: The views shared in this podcast are personal and for informational purposes only.

00:00:31: They do not reflect any employer or aviation authority and nothing discussed here should be considered flight training, or regulatory guidance.

00:00:37: Please always refer to official sources.

00:00:39: This episode may also contain product placement.

00:00:42: For further information visit our website aviation-quest.cd.

00:00:47: Hello and welcome to the AviationQuest.cc podcast!

00:00:51: My name is Stefan, I'm one of your hosts today but as always i am not alone with me here in the virtual studio.

00:00:59: we're all in different countries.

00:01:01: unfortunately it's Jürgen.

00:01:04: how are you?

00:01:06: It's amazing.

00:01:07: this whole project is really amazing...I mean as listeners.

00:01:11: maybe hopefully nobody know about your professional palette.

00:01:15: I'm a mental coach focusing on aviation and it's, yeah.

00:01:21: Had you told me one year before when we were planning this project what would happen?

00:01:25: I would just have left out.

00:01:30: It's crazy!

00:01:31: One of the first tasks normally is continuing work on my metal coaching syllabus for aviation professionals, i mentioned this before in especially episode thirty one.

00:01:42: it´s an internal coaching manual focused coaching ballads in mental preparation or helping them with mental preparation and operational readiness.

00:01:52: And yeah, then I go often to LinkedIn and today Stefan took care of all the messages yesterday evening.

00:02:00: so as hot today everything will be fine.

00:02:02: there were seven message.

00:02:06: Seven Yeah have two.

00:02:07: take you know everybody who is writing more linkedin knows that i am really young.

00:02:12: So also Stefan knows that I write thoroughly and conscientiously back.

00:02:18: And yeah, this task is waiting for me later on but as it looks by now we are not running out of guests.

00:02:34: VIP flight instructors, maybe one of the most famous flight instructors on planet Earth.

00:02:41: It's crazy Stefan!

00:02:43: Yes so today it is episode thirty-five.

00:02:47: for anyone who is counting.

00:02:49: we welcome a young man called Jason Miller quite famous uh...for those you are online he´s I guess the founder two of the finer points podcast.

00:03:03: He has a career in teaching, young pilots or well pilots let's not be discriminative in terms of age.

00:03:12: and yeah he made proper career out of it...he seems to be extremely good at what his doing.

00:03:21: I don't know how many people he's trained but it must be a lot.

00:03:24: It is his life, its passion and we wanted to hear from him... ...how he got into the profession?

00:03:31: How he managed to build up such huge following online.

00:03:36: We talked about this YouTube channel which was huge!

00:03:39: Absolutely huge.

00:03:41: And of course what it takes become good instructor.

00:03:46: Jürgen conducted interview as always And yeah, I really enjoyed listening to it.

00:03:52: Jürgen was a very good interview right?

00:03:55: Yeah i mean Jason Miller.

00:03:57: by the way do have some maybe some really uh follow and subscribe tips here came to me with Balletto Ballet podcast!

00:04:07: By the way Ballet To Ballet broadcast Justin Ziemes if you listen to this great work keep going and be our guest sooner or later.

00:04:14: Yes, you will.

00:04:16: I have sent an invite.

00:04:18: maybe it got to the spam box but... Somebody got contacted, Justin seems certainly we want him here on the show.

00:04:26: But Jason Miller was a couple of times at the Ballet to Ballet podcast so also absolutely subscribed by the baller podcast.

00:04:34: subscribe Jason Miller's fine The final points podcast and if you haven't certainly subscribed our podcast but this is enough for subscription.

00:04:46: I mean Jason Miller.

00:04:49: i think many pilots It's his way, he is not teaching.

00:04:55: I mean certainly it's about flying but its just through instruction and also communication and clarity The way that he is teaching the way of communicating.

00:05:07: He came to me as i said first time via ballet-to-ballet broadcast.

00:05:14: At least I have to try and get this man on the show.

00:05:17: And yeah, it was an endeavor.

00:05:18: It's a couple of emails He got whole team.

00:05:22: The final points is not just a podcast but also FS Clips is your YouTube channel Stefan But if you look at his numbers You'll have goals huh?

00:05:36: I don't think i will ever get there...but anyway

00:05:39: It's another animal

00:05:41: Yes!

00:05:41: Of course Yeah, very impressive.

00:05:44: Very impressive.

00:05:45: and yeah I like...I see a lot of what he's doing is very similar to what i'm trying to do which is teach people about certain topics.

00:05:58: And I share his passion that when you meet someone who tells You hey watch your channel?

00:06:03: It helped me so much with my exams have had this experience now three four times.

00:06:09: I have to say it's an amazing feeling and it makes all worthwhile.

00:06:13: And, for him that is the driving force.

00:06:17: this isn't about money or business.

00:06:19: he just really enjoys teaching and he enjoys passing on knowledge helping other people become better pilots.

00:06:29: I made the whole interview very nice to listen.

00:06:34: It makes him very likable and yeah, i would recommend anyone and everyone to check out his channel And obviously to listen to the interview that's coming now.

00:06:45: No it isn't because speaking of youtube we already forgot In one podcast and it will maybe happen again, but not in this podcast our own aviation-quest broadcast YouTube channel.

00:06:58: Yes we are an audio cast But we are thanks to Stefan's work also at youtube And there I think is today.

00:07:06: What Is There?

00:07:10: Yes,

00:07:14: so usually we have real-world flights.

00:07:16: Sometimes I go a bit off the rails and do something that's not happening in the real world but today We do one hundred percent real-World flight.

00:07:25: So i thought the other day as some of you know?

00:07:28: I live in Spain... ...I don't think I've ever done an Iberia flight And that is a bit overside considering where I live.

00:07:37: So today we are flying with Iberia, with an Airbus A-iii and we're flying from Frankfurt in Germany to Madrid in Spain.

00:07:47: Perfect!

00:07:49: Yeah?

00:07:49: And i mean...I think what do you think?

00:07:53: let's get into the conversation with somebody who is without a doubt a brilliant flight instructor but also great how should say teacher and communicator as I said speaks with clarity and also in today's podcast, there are some really valuable takeaways not only for flight students.

00:08:16: Yeah absolutely if you're even remotely interested in the industry or teaching then i would say this is a must listen.

00:08:25: so without further ado Let's get into the interview, and Jürgen and I will be back afterwards with some more thoughts.

00:08:33: And some words of wisdom right here again!

00:08:36: Okay let's get started.

00:08:40: Jason it is a great honor to have you with us on Aviation Quest C. Well welcome to the show.

00:08:46: thank you very much for having me its pleasure to be here.

00:08:50: Jason just together start.

00:08:53: when we look today what originally would you do with teaching flying, not just flying itself?

00:09:02: You know that's a great question and I'll try not to bore you.

00:09:05: There is long answer.

00:09:07: there are short answers.

00:09:10: when i first got into flying met lots of pilots who were happy about the airline lifestyle.

00:09:18: it was really a matter of coincidence.

00:09:21: I was working a job that there were a lot of Eastern airline pilots.

00:09:26: That we're furloughed at a bad time in their career and i got into aviation during um, very slow time.

00:09:34: nineteen ninety seven nineteen ninety eight And uh...a lotta pilots telling me you know this is a it's a risky career.

00:09:43: So that sort my first impression of Airline flying And I still thought that was gonna do it.

00:09:48: Well, I'll fly the line and thats what i want to do.

00:09:51: but when moved to California from Chicago in nineteen ninety-eight started working on my instrument rating found a very unique environment in California met instructors have been teaching for their whole lives.

00:10:06: you know they had never gone into the airlines.

00:10:11: It's partially due to climate Every day all year.

00:10:17: There's no weather really.

00:10:18: that grounds you.

00:10:20: there are a lot of clients with With money and a desire to succeed.

00:10:25: so the rates That instructors are able to charge is somewhat higher than other places in the world.

00:10:32: And as I Started meeting those people old Navy pilots, and other folks that were teaching flying I Really for the first time saw that it was possible You know?

00:10:44: I don't think i really thought it was a possible career.

00:10:48: And, I realized...I loved it!

00:10:51: You know?

00:10:52: It's really a people job you

00:10:54: know?!

00:10:55: People say to me sometimes how can you say the same thing all the time and its like well..i might say the samething but im saying it too completely different

00:11:03: person!!

00:11:05: So Really I found so much joy in helping people succeed.

00:11:10: Different individuals accomplished their goals and the lifestyle suited me.

00:11:14: You know, I'm a family man And i'm home every night.

00:11:17: I'm home Every weekend and um it was possible for you Know in California In The Bay Area Um...I found A lot of success.

00:11:27: uh teaching flying Just Founded To Be Really Enjoyable Job

00:11:32: Jason.

00:11:32: besides the environment Was There Maybe One Specific Moment where you realize that instruction and communication would become your main contribution to aviation?

00:11:45: Yes, I think so.

00:11:47: And it's all a perfect storm!

00:11:49: It was...I started teaching in Oakland in two thousand-two years ago ...and i knew that i loved teaching.

00:11:56: You know..i knew that I love being with people meeting different people ..and I still think its incredible.

00:12:02: by the way the people that show up in my airplane are almost without doubt extraordinary individuals.

00:12:10: By the time you go for your pilot certificate, you've accomplished things in your life and so it was really a joy!

00:12:17: And then in two thousand five one of my clients came to me and said You should start a podcast?

00:12:24: Of course It Was Two Thousand Five.

00:12:26: I Said What's A Podcast?

00:12:29: He explained what is.

00:12:32: was It really, it suited me because my first love and my first career was music.

00:12:39: So I was a professional musician before i got into flying And I thought well this is wonderful Because I can blend My Love for Flying ,My Love For Teaching And have kind of creative outlet to produce materials .And I realized right there that could take the knowledge That I Was giving To one individual somehow reach a mass audience around the world.

00:13:06: And that was really the moment I knew, That i wasn't going to fly for airlines and continue teaching and perfecting art of instruction.

00:13:16: do my best To put this material out through internet Through youtube when it came and all other channels.

00:13:23: Try making a mark on flight training

00:13:27: Podcasting.

00:13:28: yeah, I recorded my very first podcast in late.

00:13:31: two thousand seven but two thousand five Jason.

00:13:34: this sounds really like Typical Silicon Valley idea.

00:13:38: I think not many people Exactly was really a super niche back then huh?

00:13:45: It vary right and you have to understand I was living on a sailboat with the flip-phone.

00:13:49: Yeah, no, I was NOT a tech guy But my students literally dragged me into it when one might when II when I That same client.

00:13:57: when I told him, he explained what it was and gave me some examples.

00:14:01: And still said yeah i don't know if that's for me.

00:14:05: He kind of forced me to make podcasts For Him.

00:14:09: He said fine!

00:14:09: I'll pay you Make recordings for Me.

00:14:13: After made two or three recordings for him I realized okay...I'm just gonna do this on my own.

00:14:18: Then became the first sponsor.

00:14:21: He really just kind of pushed me into it, and that was exactly because he is a Silicon Valley guy who knew what this was.

00:14:32: If you allow let's go from the digital sphere back to the cockpit when we think about good flight instruction nowadays.

00:14:42: so we record these in April.

00:14:44: twenty-twenty six What are still often missing?

00:14:50: Oh man, it's so many things.

00:14:53: You know?

00:14:53: I think... It's unfortunate and I think about a lot.

00:14:59: but you human beings have been flying for what is now?

00:15:03: A hundred and fifteen years?

00:15:06: Yeah something like this

00:15:08: Something like that right.

00:15:08: And i still thing we had hard time teaching.

00:15:12: the fundamentals are the same.

00:15:19: And in fact, you're going to think they're getting worse.

00:15:23: I think that The quality of flight instruction than i see from around me and around the country um...I don't think it's any better today.

00:15:35: then was then.

00:15:36: In fact we've taken a few steps backwards.

00:15:40: most is about fundamental relationship with airplane how pilots approach flying, like the attitude they bring toward it and also their just basic skills fundamental flying skills.

00:15:59: So if I got you right with fundamentals you emphasized you mean understanding the craft?

00:16:06: And so to say look behind or beyond procedures and checklists correct.

00:16:11: well I have a very unique approach to procedures and checklists.

00:16:18: And so, i do think procedures in checklists are extremely important.

00:16:22: but yes... ...I think that most instructors are teaching them improperly.

00:16:26: they're not doing it correctly.

00:16:29: What I meant is first understand what you're doing.

00:16:32: You know yeah It's little bit complicated But.. ..I think you emphasize often clarity on fundamentals which means understanding the craft really.

00:16:43: And yeah, I mean certainly, procedures and checklists are a must have done.

00:16:50: Yeah but you know like.

00:16:51: um well i'll give you an example...I had uh a flight not that long ago two or three weeks ago..i was coming back from Palm Springs with my family so my children on board ,my wife onboard ..and a very heavy aircraft in the hot day.

00:17:07: So we were loaded to maximum gross weight.

00:17:12: shoot in Fahrenheit, a hundred and five degrees.

00:17:15: So maybe forty-five Celsius I think something like that for forty?

00:17:19: Very very hot day!

00:17:20: And we had an airspeed indication That was not accurate.

00:17:28: it turned out there Was a bug In the pedo tube but It was A very challenging moment on The take off and On the departure figuring Out what was really happening.

00:17:38: At the end of it i realized What the problem.

00:17:42: And once I knew that it was an erroneous airspeed indication, i felt very comfortable because then I thought okay.

00:17:49: I'll just ignore the air speed and fly pitch in power all the way home.

00:17:53: so I flew pitch-in-power and All of my approaches that I do at In when I land our power off.

00:18:01: So I you know?

00:18:02: I felt Very comfortable in That situation and I wondered afterwards about some younger pilots.

00:18:10: You know, are they being taught that basic relationship with pitch and power?

00:18:14: Do they feel comfortable doing power off approaches to the runway without airspeed.

00:18:19: is this you know or do they have that connection to the basics of flying?

00:18:24: And when I teach my students for the first twenty five hours we have the instruments covered Markers to draw on the window so that they can learn sight pictures and power settings.

00:18:39: And we make a real investment in That in those basic skills, so that we can build upon those skills you know as We go forward.

00:18:48: And um, that's the kind of thing that I think is missing from A lot of flight training today.

00:18:54: i Think this was really a perfect example because certainly Checklists there are nice.

00:19:00: but yeah if the airspeed indicator Is misleading?

00:19:02: You have two be able to read.

00:19:06: I just was remembering my flight school days when i was thought, listen the wind and you know yes it's just make common sense.

00:19:15: what?

00:19:16: how does the rudder feel in everything?

00:19:17: or how does this feel?

00:19:19: And then you got a picture of whats going on.

00:19:21: there must be...you have lot indication.

00:19:24: so say..to read the airspeed without the air speed indicator You made me flying a glider back again.

00:19:34: That's exactly right.

00:19:35: Like all those different cues, you know that I would describe as your connection to the airplane.

00:19:40: You are

00:19:41: sure

00:19:42: weight in everything that you're feeling all your senses and I think unfortunately a lot of the glass panel training is making it more difficult for newer pilots learn that and to experience it.

00:19:59: If you look at the finer points, we have a private pilot syllabus many thousands of instructors are using.

00:20:08: It explicitly says if your'e using glass panel system like G-one thousand or whatever is for first twenty five hours really primary flight display should be dark use backup instruments And if you're using a standard panel airplane, You should have those flight instruments covered.

00:20:29: It's not that the student can't look at them But they are just covered in such way That their'e able to stare at them.

00:20:38: The primacy...the first thing They learn and consider Are things your describing.

00:20:44: What is pitch attitude of an aeroplane?

00:20:46: What does power set at?

00:20:47: what Does the rudder feel like?

00:20:51: And if you don't invest in that early on, it's very difficult to go back and add that later.

00:21:00: I would call it the depths of knowledge?

00:21:03: Would he agree with this?

00:21:05: Yeah!

00:21:06: It seems that way now...I'm fighting to keep it alive.

00:21:10: I don't know whether or not its dead but it is unlikely.

00:21:13: Sorry my pronunciation mainly.

00:21:17: The deep so-to say broader The broader picture of knowledge, not the depths of knowledges.

00:21:22: Sorry

00:21:23: I misunderstood

00:21:27: you.

00:21:28: What do think about this?

00:21:29: Yeah it's absolutely one hundred percent correct and everything is built on a good foundation.

00:21:41: Now that i have children It interesting because there are teaching philosophy Common in Europe or not, but it's a Waldorf is the philosophy and It's a slightly different approach to learning where they They wait a little bit.

00:21:58: They don't teach the kids To read right away.

00:22:00: They're not putting them into hard math lessons when their seven years old.

00:22:05: instead There building other skills.

00:22:08: there building social skills or problem-solving skills, teaching them art and how to knit.

00:22:20: Then later when the children are maybe eight years old they start bringing in more academic knowledge instead of a linear progression.

00:22:37: It looks more like a hockey stick where it's slow in the beginning, but then at the end.

00:22:42: It just accelerates exponentially and those children that are coming out of those schools In my area Are the top test scoring kids in the whole county?

00:22:52: They're getting you know when they graduate The secondary schools And stuff there performing better than all the other kids.

00:23:03: That's what we've been trying to do with flying.

00:23:05: And that my point is, if instructors could take twenty five hours in the beginning To invest In foundation so you're building your house on a very solid Foundation.

00:23:18: Everything else downstream Flying approaches Performing flight maneuvers Doing cross country flying Whatever it Is All of those other things will be better and that pilot Will perform better if the foundation is solid.

00:23:34: And unfortunately, when people go in for flight training there's two things what most instructors don't know this or see it that way and also the students are not entirely tolerant of it because they're not being you know...the instructors aren't confident.

00:23:54: people will go in for flight training and they'll learn how to do a steep turn or power on stall, the power off stall.

00:24:00: And then right into maneuvers.

00:24:03: well if you don't have solid foundation You might be able fly a maneuver but really skipped over learning that it was designed to teach.

00:24:16: Jason!

00:24:16: You mentioned the finer points couple of minutes ago.

00:24:20: How did the finer point involve overtime from your work as an instructor?

00:24:27: And what it is today, I mean certainly its a platform.

00:24:31: Yeah well started as podcast in two thousand five and then the YouTube channel in two-thousand seven.

00:24:39: really just way to get some of these thoughts out there.

00:24:43: Some other philosophies that you know.

00:24:45: i knew.

00:24:46: this was somewhat unique because even my own flight school people were not Choosing to learn this way and there was one particular instructor that I met Richard Anderson.

00:25:00: it Was my mentor really over time.

00:25:02: I ended up working for a lot of years And Richard was charging a lot Of money, and it wasn't easy To go through his program and most people avoided It.

00:25:10: they just went the easy route and i started to notice.

00:25:14: you know i did not.

00:25:16: once i knew That i was gonna be a teacher i gravitated toward richard and i allowed put myself in as his apprentice, you know and said I want to learn everything that you have to teach.

00:25:30: And one of the things that stood out to me is after i was trained all those friends of mine that chose not train with him started calling saying hey can we go fly this weekend?

00:25:42: Can you show me some of that stuff Richard showed

00:25:44: you?".

00:25:46: And then he started realizing wait a minute... This is special knowledge!

00:25:51: That's where the podcast came from.

00:25:52: I started to really talk about these concepts and And try to get the word out and the YouTube channel, and ultimately it evolved into a training platform Which you know we have an iOS app today.

00:26:07: that really is the embodiment of all that work.

00:26:12: Yeah certainly also the youtube channel.

00:26:14: i am one of your K subscribers.

00:26:20: All right, thank you.

00:26:22: It's an institution here in the internet.

00:26:26: Well it's quite an honor.

00:26:27: its It's amazing.

00:26:30: You know now I fly around and I go to airports And people will recognize me mostly from YouTube and it's a joy.

00:26:37: Its'a real honour.

00:26:40: At end of day.

00:26:41: that is really what got into.

00:26:43: training Is helping people succeed.

00:26:45: The joy i get Teaching people things they may never have never heard before or saying it in a way that they've never heard.

00:26:54: and so when I go to an air show Or any airport?

00:26:57: And somebody says hey, that lazy eight video you did.

00:27:00: That saved my life.

00:27:01: You know the.

00:27:02: I just love to hear that.

00:27:03: its It's really a joy and honor.

00:27:07: Alrighty building up Really nice bridge to my next topic here mentorship and communication.

00:27:12: if you allow.

00:27:15: What role does mentorship play in aviation today Chasen and where do you think it's underutilized?

00:27:28: I don't know exactly.

00:27:30: Well, I Don't Know Where It's Underutilized.

00:27:33: i guess part of Mentorship is good.

00:27:37: It really is because anything that you're going to, people who have gone down the road before even if it's a negative message Is good learning.

00:27:46: For example when I was working in Chicago meeting all those airline pilots That weren't happy with their jobs and The net jet pilots that were not happy With their schedules...I did NOT like listening To them complain but..it Was A good part of my education.

00:28:05: I led

00:28:05: you to the solution, flight instructing.

00:28:08: Yeah!

00:28:08: You know what?

00:28:09: And i'm glad that for NetJet's Seven Days On and Seven Days Off is a very difficult schedule... ...and so learning is always good but unfortunately I don't think mentorship helps much with problems we're talking about because Most pilots are just passing down what they know and it doesn't help fill these holes, you know It doesn't.

00:28:38: Unless you happen to find a mentor.

00:28:40: who?

00:28:41: Who understands this.

00:28:42: You know like I'll give you an example here at my home base one Don't know if you know the Blanco Lirio YouTube channel.

00:28:48: sure

00:28:49: yeah Juan Brown is here also And Juan as a fantastic mentor.

00:28:54: he's great He understands that.

00:28:56: all in he and i agree on almost everything when it comes to flying.

00:29:01: And he has a mentor, Kellen who works on his YouTube channel.

00:29:05: and so Kellen happened to find a wonderful mentor.

00:29:09: but there aren't that many Juan Browns out there you know?

00:29:11: There's just as many mentors probably telling people oh don't worry about that Just get to the airlines as fast as you can You know.

00:29:18: Get your seniority number then you'll be able to upgrade to captain.

00:29:23: So...you really have Kind of listen to everybody.

00:29:29: and then that's very easy-to-do today because there are podcasts in YouTube or whatever.

00:29:33: But if you're a young pilot, I think you have to kind of listen To everybody.

00:29:38: And see where your heart takes You know?

00:29:41: See it won't always be great.

00:29:45: advice is what i'm saying.

00:29:48: But also this moment in the podcast let's allow to jump back into the cockpit Jason how important is language and communication?

00:29:57: So especially directly in the cockpit in shaping a pilot thinking.

00:30:03: Oh gosh, it's very Very important.

00:30:09: It's extremely important And and it's also very difficult one of the things I say two instructors when I'm teaching classes of instructors One of the hardest parts of The Job is that on the first day you do everything and, On the last Day You Do Nothing.

00:30:29: And Knowing How & When To Get Yourself Out Of The Equation Is A Very Difficult Challenge.

00:30:41: So Part Of It Is Simply There's An Art to when I Say Anything At All.

00:30:47: Well, you know because It's just hard to measure.

00:30:51: You know if If you're doing everything one day and everything the next day And every thing that I say so how do you get yourself out of?

00:30:57: That and then The kinds of communication you're Doing.

00:31:01: sometimes in the cockpit it's appropriate To Say something immediately say Something harsh.

00:31:08: an end says something intense.

00:31:11: There are other times when its eat When it's Appropriate to say nothing at all but to make a note on your notepad or knee board, lapboard whatever you have and discuss it after the flight.

00:31:24: So that's another difficult thing knowing what should you deal with right then in there?

00:31:30: And What Should You Deal With Later?

00:31:32: It is interesting Richard my mentor.

00:31:36: I joked he was sadistic.

00:31:38: He wasn't a very nice guy.

00:31:43: He would do things like slap me in the back of a head or jab me and the ribs with uh, With a metal pole that he had.

00:31:53: And I hated it at the time.

00:31:55: But i'll be honest sometimes-and to be clear...I DO NOT Do THAT To my students!

00:32:00: I do not physically assault My students in any way at all.

00:32:04: but Sometimes..I think to myself....He was more effective than I am.

00:32:12: And how do I achieve the same level of effectiveness?

00:32:16: You know, there's...I used to call it training by trauma but There is a learning law.

00:32:21: It's called The Law Of Intensity and the law says that those experiences That are intense or experiences you'll remember Richard was very good at the law of intensity because he didn't mind assaulting me.

00:32:34: But sometimes we just have To be sharp and pointed.

00:32:41: Sometimes not, sometimes the words have to be soft you know?

00:32:47: And this is really we're getting into art of instruction which I love that people don't understand how deep instruction can go.

00:33:04: most think when they sit down or show them.

00:33:10: But after decades of doing this, most people are in their own way.

00:33:15: Most students have egos, they're defensive.

00:33:20: so when I say for example you were left to the center line on that last landing... ...most will say yeah but i was at my airspeed did you see?

00:33:30: My approach is perfect!

00:33:32: So there response to me is a defensive response.

00:33:38: So learning how to navigate that is always a challenge.

00:33:43: I've learned, for example with students like that... ...I would say man!

00:33:45: That approach looked great.

00:33:47: nice job.

00:33:47: on the approach.

00:33:48: you were left at the center line though on landing You need to fix that and as long they hear something positive before they hear the criticism They can open their ears and learn it.

00:33:58: And then which words do you choose?

00:34:01: Is another one pullback or back pressure more elevator, what are the words that you're actually using?

00:34:12: All of this stuff matters.

00:34:14: Have we seen maybe a specific or do remember a specific moment where to write an explanation for yours really changed about its entire perspective.

00:34:26: let's say on a maneuver something.

00:34:30: well I mean i don't know if it is anything I've said but there was concept of the Lindbergh reference.

00:34:41: I call it the Lindbergh reference, but that's just a catchy name for something other people figured out long time ago.

00:34:49: Rod Machado used to call it the pizza slice, I think.

00:34:52: I mean, I don't know...I use to call that golden reference but there's this particular you-know?

00:34:58: I always say for any problem in an airplane There is a solution.

00:35:01: and the solution where you look when you look at everything based on visual references And i find most students are not taught this.

00:35:10: So most student trying to stretch their neck or crank up seat really high so they can see over the nose.

00:35:17: Once they lose the reference over-the-nose, They have nowhere to look or know where it'd go.

00:35:22: I would say eighty percent of the time.

00:35:25: when i tell pilots To push their seat lower and to pitch The aircraft up such that they cannot see forward And then i teach them what references work When they can't see forward Such as the limber reference Or left wing reference That's always an aha moment for pilots.

00:35:44: They are usually shocked.

00:35:48: they haven't been taught that before and it Usually helps with whatever the maneuver is.

00:35:53: That we're doing.

00:35:55: It was so much as Again, I wasn't a glider cockpit ahead in any phase of my training.

00:36:02: such a great instructor And he taught me in easy words means long time ago.

00:36:08: but how to Spot out aiming point.

00:36:12: you know where I really got to the threshold and this somehow made me from there on.

00:36:18: Once it clicked, every landing was easy going.

00:36:21: but also visual reference before that is unclear.

00:36:27: I cannot tell you how he explained other than others But often a flight instructor explains something can make huge difference.

00:36:38: Steep learning curve from one flight to another or really an approach?

00:36:44: Yeah, it's just basic knowledge.

00:36:48: Yeah absolutely and sometimes there is no rhyme or reason to that.

00:36:53: you know we were talking a moment ago about the challenge for instructors pulling themselves out of this situation one of the best things instructors can do help with that.

00:37:06: I still religiously use colleagues When you're working with somebody and your head is completely together, it's very easy to lose perspective on the big picture.

00:37:24: So if you send your student to a colleague for a phase check just any other instructor It's always a good idea.

00:37:31: You as an instructor will learn Your students will learn And what you said.

00:37:35: sometimes Just hearing someone else Say something in a slightly different way or not having the pressure of your main instructor, whatever it is Sometimes that can make a connection.

00:37:47: That is difficult with the primary student.

00:37:50: For me.

00:37:51: I learned crosswind landings from somebody that was NOT my primary instructor.

00:37:56: Just happened to be a windy day and my instructor didn't want to fly but i Was hanging out at the airport?

00:38:02: And someone else wanted to fly.

00:38:03: so i went With A Different Instructor.

00:38:05: Not Better Not Worse.

00:38:07: But the way that instructor said it, and showed me for some reason... It clicked.

00:38:15: So yeah!

00:38:16: Same happened to me.

00:38:18: there were all great instructors but this one specific instructor he explained in a way I suddenly understood.

00:38:29: back then they said similar things.

00:38:35: Yeah, this is the aiming point.

00:38:37: Now I know what he's talking about.

00:38:39: Yes exactly and actually i did just think of a very specific example Of language that works for me.

00:38:46: so i find with side slips The language i use Is point the ailerons in the direction you want the airplane to move And use Just enough rudder To prevent the nose from coming With You.

00:39:00: So it's A difficult maneuver to teach Because if u look at forward slip It's the same control inputs like if I was explaining to a student how do you do it forward slip?

00:39:11: Well, You cross-control.

00:39:12: The airplane.

00:39:13: you push rudder in one direction and you push aileron In the other direction And that's a forward slip.

00:39:18: And then they say, well how do you a side slip?

00:39:21: Well... You push Aileron in one direction and rudder on the other.

00:39:25: That's a side-slip.

00:39:25: so what is difference?

00:39:26: They are very different maneuvers.

00:39:29: The sideslip is very subtle.

00:39:31: It extremely subtle where forward slip is gross maneuver.

00:39:34: So for the forward slip just push the rudder to floor Then use Ailerons to keep flying straight path.

00:39:41: But the sideslips very subtle.

00:39:43: and what I was seeing is that all these students are using too much rudder in the side slip.

00:39:48: They'll point the ailerons little bit because they're afraid to hit the wing on the ground, they won't point it a lot...they will just bank the aircraft a little bit then push a lot of rudder like you do with an forward-slip and your nose kind goes sideways instead moving sideways forward slipping and is gonna land with a big side load on the runway.

00:40:13: So in an effort to get students, to understand the subtlety of the sideslip I started to say only enough rudder to prevent the nose from coming.

00:40:25: so you use the ailerons to bank in the direction you want the airplane to move And looking forward just Just Enough Rudder To Stop The Nose From Coming not point the other way but Just to prevent it from coming with you.

00:40:41: and that language clicks for a lot of people.

00:40:45: No clue how your making this magic experience, but my mind is already again wandering back to flight school studio And the super safe flights.

00:40:55: You know there's so much fun in side slip in training glider plane.

00:41:00: It's safe its fun, and it almost magic.

00:41:08: Yeah, land on point.

00:41:09: Yes I know it's great!

00:41:13: Jason we are recording this as we said before in April but interview will be online by the beginning of July.

00:41:21: back to the final points.

00:41:23: is there something you're currently working on and would maybe like to share with the audience?

00:41:29: some news on the horizon?

00:41:32: Well y'know were just continuing to invest.

00:41:38: You know, I'm really fortunate to have an incredible team of people.

00:41:41: We've got nine other instructors That work on it.

00:41:46: we've got you know It's over a hundred thousand hours of confined experience these folks are Really?

00:41:52: So it's a fantastic team.

00:41:55: We've gotten software engineer and in the video producer And we don't make a lot of money.

00:42:00: We are really passionately engaged in making something better, making something different and making something that will help pilots everywhere stay proficient.

00:42:13: So we've really just scratched the surface.

00:42:15: but to give you an example inside of our app... ...we built a technology called TapTarget where we can show the user or viewer the cockpit video from the pilot's perspective.

00:42:28: starting to go bad, let's say a turn and you're starting to descend.

00:42:32: And we've asked you to touch like just tap the screen where you see it and when you see It.

00:42:37: so using the video in the app We can teach you where the references are.

00:42:42: this is where?

00:42:42: You're supposed To be looking.

00:42:43: This Is The first place you're gonna See the maneuver Go Bad.

00:42:46: This Is the First Place you're Gonna See the stall occur.

00:42:49: I mean that's Just one example of the kind Of Thing We're Investing In but We're Really Trying to Create a product that helps pilots succeed and learn the fundamentals, fill holes of knowledge they may not have learned from their original instructors.

00:43:09: Jason you promised me around half an hour so we are already over time.

00:43:15: is there any topic?

00:43:16: You want to have more exploration or deep dive into specific topics?

00:43:25: Is there anything in your sphere you want to share with the listeners?

00:43:33: Not really a topic, but I'm always excited about our airplane camp trips and i would imagine that you have large European audience.

00:43:39: Sounds interesting.

00:43:42: go on!

00:43:43: Yeah we three or four times per year take pilots out in the wild, so this October we're going to Monument Valley Utah.

00:43:51: It's a beautiful place!

00:43:53: We bring usually it ends up being uh fifteen or twenty aircraft and thirty-or forty pilots...we bring food provided..We bring survival training....we bring lectures.

00:44:07: there's you know people that lecture to us, we go fly the canyons of the Southwest over Monument Valley and Lake Powell.

00:44:15: And it's really an extraordinary weekend.

00:44:18: I just wanted you invite any European audience if they'd like to join us.

00:44:21: We have rental aircrafts.

00:44:23: so find out more about airplane camp at learnthefinerpoints.com.

00:44:30: Sounds amazing!

00:44:31: Hopefully a bucket list item for many pilots.

00:44:35: Monument valley Utah.

00:44:36: Wow from my side, all I can say is thank you.

00:44:43: And yeah as you might know ,I call myself a mentor because I support pilots and aviation candidates with the mental side of performance chasing.

00:44:55: .And at end i mean small personal note for my side little present.

00:44:59: if feel ever like further exploring the mental site or performance preparation..i'd be happy to offer your session certainly completely open and without any strings attached.

00:45:11: Excellent, well.

00:45:11: thank you very much Jurgen thanks for having me today too.

00:45:14: it's a fun talking to you.

00:45:16: Thank You every minute.

00:45:19: And yeah all the best.

00:45:21: and thank you Jason.

00:45:24: Okay, welcome back in the studio everyone!

00:45:26: I hope you enjoyed this interview.

00:45:28: I really enjoyed listening to it again.

00:45:31: Yeah like i said before The interview very likable person Great personality...I think a teacher through and through And lots of interesting points raised.

00:45:43: Yeah, let me first things first.

00:45:46: Thank you, Jason Miller and for all of your out-of-the-art ear listeners.

00:45:50: If you'd like to explore more about his work You can find him through the finer points on YouTube Through his podcast And through the official The Finer Point website which is LearnTheFinerPoints.com Including the ground school app and his adventure training trips.

00:46:09: adventure training trips.

00:46:10: Yes, there are as we also heard in the interview and I think it was a brilliant interview by a brilliant flight instructor and communicator.

00:46:23: I absolutely agree.

00:46:24: It was super interesting and i could tell it took you back to your training days.

00:46:29: there were lots of memories coming back, i could hear that in the interview!

00:46:34: And when i was listening to it... ...the same happened to me uh.. You know?

00:46:38: ..it took me back to the day so when i had to learn how to fly and did the ground school and all that stuff.

00:46:45: So he was a nice walk down memory lane for both

00:46:50: us.

00:46:50: I think Miller did some magic to me.

00:46:53: There was suddenly scenes, and now it's almost forgotten... It was really a nice interview.

00:47:02: also because of those, you know my brain suddenly started.

00:47:05: Hey this is exactly what happened in Nidoplan.

00:47:08: and hey come on!

00:47:12: Yeah

00:47:12: it's...

00:47:13: I mean This Is What An Aviation podcast is all about.

00:47:16: by the way its really thank-you.

00:47:18: um i mentioned linkedin at the beginning.

00:47:23: Yeah, he was in contact with me first on LinkedIn and afterwards I received such a nice voicemail from Africa.

00:47:31: And that we are really somehow our unedited or so to say uncut conversations here and grounded it.

00:47:41: there were some really double-double thumbs up for our podcast.

00:47:44: It's really yeah.

00:47:45: thank you also for the positive feedback all over the place.

00:47:50: You are really a great community out there, aviation community.

00:47:54: I didn't know you now and knew your great community!

00:47:57: Yes yes i think generally people in aviation are a great bunch And...

00:48:04: I only knew small part of the community but certainly now.

00:48:09: Stefan made this so to say large part of my life A major part.

00:48:18: Everybody is doing magic to me, Stefan and Jason Miller.

00:48:21: I'm just part of a great project here.

00:48:26: let's leave it like this

00:48:27: yeah that's great!

00:48:28: It has always been an industry i absolutely love.

00:48:31: the people in aviation generally are all very special.

00:48:39: For those of you who don't work in the industry, it's like a big family and doesn't matter if we go through the terminal.

00:48:46: You see another crew even though they are competitors... It does not matter.

00:48:51: everyone smiles and says hello!

00:48:54: If your uniform and meet someone else person in uniform, beat cabin crew or pilot.

00:48:59: It doesn't matter what company they are from.

00:49:02: you can just start a conversation and everyone is very welcoming and nice.

00:49:07: so this thing I really like about the industry.

00:49:11: Like i said on one of my other podcasts ,I briefly lost my job had to work at an office environment for awhile that felt completely different than I have say alien.

00:49:26: I'm glad to be in this industry and I think Jürgen you can feel the same, right?

00:49:30: It's like a big family where everybody is working towards the same goal.

00:49:37: Yeah it still...I mean especially i really liked this way at the moment of communication at LinkedIn Especially.

00:49:46: there was no hurry but when there are some messages almost formal you know, which is for me I'm out of the chat.

00:49:56: Somehow it was never a social media chatter.

00:49:58: this wasn't ever my way...I don´t like.. I am an author or writer and have written seven books And i like to take some thoughts on what are right.

00:50:07: then i write them.

00:50:08: This really is appreciated by LinkedIn.

00:50:11: By the way there's each Thursday afternoon A little giveaway from ... I mentioned in the beginning my mental my mental coaching syllabus for aviation professionals and every Thursday afternoon there is a free version, so to say linked in version published on LinkedIn normally at three p.m.. But speaking of direct links the LinkedIn profile it's My name young rice is in the teaser.

00:50:48: This episode also includes, at the end of this teaser some direct links to our today's guests platform.

00:50:56: So Jason Miller, Fine Appoints etc.

00:50:59: and there is also a direct link after Discord server.

00:51:03: I think Stefan we had his idea And i just thought We make spontaneous so-to say announcement.

00:51:10: If you have questions for us why don't you put them into aviation broadcast section on Stefan's Discord server and we could maybe take care of them in special episodes.

00:51:25: What do you think about this, Stefan?

00:51:27: Yeah I mean we've done one FAQ episode already.

00:51:32: so if anyone... You know because there are things that keep popping up again and again but

00:51:37: why not?

00:51:38: i mean If they're new questions.

00:51:39: certainly We will now repeat the old ones.

00:51:42: As I said, there's a discord server and i just thought because There is something going on.

00:51:48: We are already at episode thirty five And certainly also if you want to have yourself in the podcast or no friend who would suit this format Just write us communicate with us.

00:52:02: Yeah, exactly.

00:52:03: Because sometimes you have a question and the question can be answered fairly quickly.

00:52:08: so there's no point in having like a ten minute episode.

00:52:13: but if we collect them all up and answer several questions like with it last time then of course Yeah, from my side.

00:52:26: I think we've discussed everything you know?

00:52:31: We have done all the social media thing You know like and subscribe and all that jazz which were really bad at

00:52:40: And we leave it away.

00:52:41: but yeah, um looking forward to hear hearing from you maybe reading from you and Yeah, thank you Stefan for your time

00:52:53: And I suppose we stay in the line and discuss what's happening over the next few weeks.

00:53:01: Anyway, to our listeners thank you so much for being here with us again!

00:53:04: I hope enjoyed the interview.

00:53:06: i thought it was very interesting also from my side.

00:53:10: a big Thank You to Jason For taking time out to talk to us Okay?

00:53:16: Then We Hope To Hear See You Next Week.

00:53:20: Until then All The Best Bye-bye.

00:53:28: Thank you for listening to Aviation Quest

00:53:31: CC stories

00:53:33: from above.

00:53:34: For more information about this episode and everything we do, visit our homepage aviation-quest dot cc.

00:53:43: We appreciate your time and support And if would love to have you back for the next episode until then stay safe Stay curious and keep your passion for aviation flying high.